Rebecca Hinds (00:00)

Welcome back to Intelligence Real and Imagined from the Work AI Institute at Glean.

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Rebecca Hinds (00:05)

This is the show where we sort through what's real, what's hype, and what actually works with AI at work.

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Rebecca Hinds (00:13)

In today's episode, we're talking about AI and HR and why this moment feels different, not just bigger or faster, but more personal.

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Rebecca Hinds (00:23)

Because HR isn't just adopting new tools.

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Rebecca Hinds (00:27)

It's being asked to make judgment calls about people at scale, and with technology that's still evolving, it's showing up in hiring, performance, pay, layoffs, learning pretty much every decision that affects people's lives at work.

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Rebecca Hinds (00:43)

Our guest today is Beth Steinberg.

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Rebecca Hinds (00:46)

Beth has spent her career at the intersection of people, strategy, and change.

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Rebecca Hinds (00:51)

She's led HR teams at places like Chime, Nike, Facebook, Nordstrom.

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Rebecca Hinds (00:57)

She's led those organizations through growth, uncertainty, and the kind of organizational curveballs that don't come with a playbook.

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Rebecca Hinds (01:06)

She's thoughtful, she's direct, and she doesn't flinch when the conversation gets uncomfortable.

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Rebecca Hinds (01:12)

I'm also joined, as always, by my co-host, Bob Sutton, Professor Emeritus at Stanford, best-selling author, and a longtime collaborator.

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Rebecca Hinds (01:21)

Let's go ahead and dive in.

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Rebecca Hinds (01:26)

So, Beth, you've led so many HR teams and departments through various types of change over the years.

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Rebecca Hinds (01:32)

Economic changes, the pandemic.

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Rebecca Hinds (01:37)

Does this feel different in terms of the change that we're experiencing right now around AI?

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Beth Steinberg (01:44)

That's a great question.

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Beth Steinberg (01:47)

I think what feels different is so much of the unknown for people right now, and the rate of change is happening so fast.

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Beth Steinberg (02:00)

And I think with some of the other events that I have managed through difficult events like economic downturns, you sort of knew there would be an end, or history would have showed there was an end.

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Beth Steinberg (02:16)

And I think what is different this time is nobody knows what's really going to happen and what the evolution is going to bring.

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Beth Steinberg (02:26)

And I think how it's going to impact their companies and perhaps their own jobs specifically.

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Beth Steinberg (02:33)

So I do think it's different.

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Rebecca Hinds (02:35)

Yep.

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Rebecca Hinds (02:35)

And does HR feel that most acutely right now or is it something that you're seeing across the board?

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Beth Steinberg (02:42)

Yeah, I mean, I think I'm seeing it across the board.

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Beth Steinberg (02:45)

I would say many CEOs feel it.

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Beth Steinberg (02:49)

Because I think if you know, you're asked about it all the time, if you're a public company and you're not an AI company, you're being asked about is so in the zeitgeist all the time.

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Beth Steinberg (03:04)

But I think in terms of people in talent teams, I think they're thinking about it a lot. Both in terms of what this means for their own talent base.

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Beth Steinberg (03:16)

You know, are they able to keep.

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Beth Steinberg (03:18)

To keep up with, with, you know, what is changing every day?

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Beth Steinberg (03:22)

Are they able to bring in the level of talent?

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Beth Steinberg (03:25)

Obviously, there's just a finite number of people who, you know, who know about AI and can contribute.

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Beth Steinberg (03:32)

So I think there is a lot of pressure.

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Beth Steinberg (03:35)

I have seen a few examples that I think are great.

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Beth Steinberg (03:38)

I think, like ServiceNow, Jackie Carney's, you know, also the AI Transformation Office.

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Beth Steinberg (03:45)

And so I do think people leaders can play a really pivotal role in this transformation.

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Bob Sutton (03:54)

So since I know you coach a lot of them, both people leaders and folks in other functions.

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Beth Steinberg (04:00)

Yeah.

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Bob Sutton (04:01)

So when you're in that, what are they worried about?

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Bob Sutton (04:03)

Like when you have those sort of conversations, what are they worried about?

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Bob Sutton (04:08)

What advice do you give them?

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Beth Steinberg (04:10)

Yeah, I mean, I think they're worried about can we find the talent that, that we need.

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Beth Steinberg (04:14)

Right.

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Beth Steinberg (04:14)

And can we keep up, can we compete from a financial perspective?

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Beth Steinberg (04:20)

Because, you know, especially if they're not an AI-first company, I mean, there are obviously, you know, stories that are not true, but stories that are true about, you know, the poaching that is going on around AI talent.

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Beth Steinberg (04:35)

So I think they're really worried about that and how to compete.

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Beth Steinberg (04:40)

I think they're worried about jobs going away and how to deal with that.

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Beth Steinberg (04:45)

I think they're worried about how do we actually use AI as a tool for positive things within our own company and who's going to lead that charge.

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Beth Steinberg (04:58)

And if it's them, do they.

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Beth Steinberg (05:00)

Are they actually qualified or do they feel confident enough to lead that charge?

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Beth Steinberg (05:05)

So what my advice is, many people are feeling this way and you're not alone in this, and this is a problem or kind of an exciting time and try to embrace it more than.

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Beth Steinberg (05:25)

And then be afraid of it.

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Beth Steinberg (05:27)

Yeah.

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Beth Steinberg (05:27)

And try to figure out in your department, how can you set the example of how you can use AI tools in a way that is going to make impact to the business outcomes of the company.

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Beth Steinberg (05:44)

But I think it's difficult. 

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Bob Sutton (05:45)

It's tough.

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Rebecca Hinds (05:46)

And you mentioned Jackie, and I think we're seeing several examples of organizations vesting this AI Transformation Officer within the HR role.

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Beth Steinberg (05:55)

Yes.

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Rebecca Hinds (05:56)

Would you recommend that?

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Rebecca Hinds (05:57)

Are there certain types of companies where that can be especially beneficial?

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Beth Steinberg (06:02)

Well, I think I would recommend it depending on the company, the leaders and the person in charge.

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Beth Steinberg (06:08)

I mean, I think because it is a transformation.

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Beth Steinberg (06:13)

Obviously, many people leaders are very used to dealing with change management and the changing workforce and being creative about tools that can be used. So I think if a people leader is suited for that, I think it's a great way.

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Beth Steinberg (06:34)

I think if it's driven only from a technology perspective, it's difficult because you don't necessarily get the change management, or you don't necessarily understand the people implications of some of the decisions that are being made.

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Bob Sutton (06:56)

We're hearing all these rumors and true stories that roles are being eliminated, they're being merged.

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Bob Sutton (07:03)

What is it?

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Bob Sutton (07:04)

Bots are managing people.

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Bob Sutton (07:05)

People are managing zillion.

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Bob Sutton (07:07)

So what are you seeing in actual changes in organizations that you know, as opposed to the hype or the fear and hope about what will happen?

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Bob Sutton (07:15)

They seem so different.

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Beth Steinberg (07:16)

They do.

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Beth Steinberg (07:17)

And I think the folklore is not what I'm seeing necessarily in reality.

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Beth Steinberg (07:24)

I mean, I think a couple of companies that tried to say we're going to let bots run everything, I think Lattice is an example, and it went horribly wrong for Lattice.

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Beth Steinberg (07:36)

And I think they got a lot of pushback for it.

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Beth Steinberg (07:42)

What I do see, though, is things like, do we really need to hire interns?

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Beth Steinberg (07:49)

Do we really need to hire early talent?

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Beth Steinberg (07:53)

Can roles that you know are doing a lot of day-to-day analysis, and you know, can those roles go away?

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Beth Steinberg (08:03)

And I think the answer in some cases is roles can be evolved greatly.

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Beth Steinberg (08:09)

And I do think there will be skill sets that are becoming fairly obsolete over time.

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Beth Steinberg (08:19)

And I think, you know, I think that is sad and scary, and people are going to have to learn different ways.

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Beth Steinberg (08:26)

But what I am seeing from my colleagues that I talk a lot about this too are they're using it for great productivity gains in the people world and even in the recruiting world, automation of scheduling, like, you know, it's a pain to schedule all those people.

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Beth Steinberg (08:53)

Now I think the caution to that is there is a connectivity that you want people to feel when you are trying to get them to come to your, to your company.

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Beth Steinberg (09:08)

So I think there's a balance there.

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Bob Sutton (09:10)

So I don't think necessarily a bunch of interviews.

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Beth Steinberg (09:12)

Yeah, yeah, you have a, you know, I think people want a person and not just a bot, but I think in terms of like efficiency, I would much rather schedule something online than I would actually go to a person.

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Beth Steinberg (09:23)

So you see that.

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Beth Steinberg (09:24)

I also think in terms of analysis, I mean I use it so much to analyze a million different things that used to take me hours and hours and hours.

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Rebecca Hinds (09:41)

And what would be an example?

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Beth Steinberg (09:42)

An example is, and hopefully this is not an example that the company's like, why are you doing that?

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Beth Steinberg (09:49)

But so I do a lot of assessments for people and I Do it, you know, for two reasons.

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Beth Steinberg (09:55)

One, for team to have sort of a common language of how they talk about things.

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Beth Steinberg (10:00)

Secondly, I think having some self-awareness and understanding is critically important at any level of the company.

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Beth Steinberg (10:07)

And so I'd never done this before, but I took this assessment that I did for a team, and usually I would go to the company and have them kind of, you know, run in a bunch of different ways.

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Beth Steinberg (10:20)

For me, I stuck it all through AI, every single profile, and I said, let me know where you think this team might have concerns about working styles, where they're aligned, some ideas for the manager.

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Beth Steinberg (10:35)

What it spat out in literally a one-minute time period was absolutely brilliant.

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Beth Steinberg (10:41)

Absolutely brilliant.

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Beth Steinberg (10:42)

It seemed exceedingly accurate.

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Beth Steinberg (10:44)

It was easy to read, it was easy to understand, it was actionable.

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Beth Steinberg (10:50)

So that is an example of something that would have taken me hours to do previously.

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Beth Steinberg (10:58)

I also think about like compensation analysis, which has always been hard, especially for small companies.

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Beth Steinberg (11:06)

You know, it's expensive.

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Bob Sutton (11:07)

Well, you've done it all this while you've had so many small companies.

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Beth Steinberg (11:10)

I have.

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Beth Steinberg (11:11)

And it's expensive.

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Beth Steinberg (11:12)

The data's not always that relevant.

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Beth Steinberg (11:14)

You need a human, you know, to, to do all this work with the, with the compensation, you know, surveys that you get.

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Beth Steinberg (11:23)

AI can do all of that for you now.

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Beth Steinberg (11:26)

I always tell people you gotta check it.

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Bob Sutton (11:29)

One of the topics that you and I are obsessed with, Rebecca and I are talking about constantly and seems to be whether it's a disease or a positive infection or whatever that's spreading through Silicon Valley at least is this de-layering thing.

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Bob Sutton (11:44)

What's your take on if that should be done, how that should be done?

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Bob Sutton (11:49)

Because we know lots of people who just middle managers are massively overloaded.

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Bob Sutton (11:54)

They are as a result.

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Beth Steinberg (11:56)

Yeah, I mean, I think sometimes it should be done.

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Beth Steinberg (12:00)

And you know, I think there was a massive amount of overhiring that has taken place in the last several years.

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Beth Steinberg (12:09)

It's always been my pet peeve as a people leader.

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Beth Steinberg (12:14)

Like why are we hiring so many people?

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Beth Steinberg (12:16)

Like, you know, it just doesn't make sense.

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Beth Steinberg (12:19)

And there's data that suggests, you know, over-hiring makes a negative impact to, to business outcomes.

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Bob Sutton (12:25)

And by the way, when you were.

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Bob Sutton (12:27)

I won't name the companies in senior HR positions, first you had to argue against over-hiring, lose.

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Bob Sutton (12:32)

And then you also had to do the layoffs.

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Beth Steinberg (12:33)

Yes, exactly, exactly.

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Bob Sutton (12:36)

Lay them off.

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Beth Steinberg (12:37)

Exactly.

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Beth Steinberg (12:38)

And I have the receipts for all of it.

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Beth Steinberg (12:40)

Like so I've always been like, why are we hiring so many people?

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Beth Steinberg (12:43)

It doesn't make sense.

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Beth Steinberg (12:44)

But so I do think there were companies that had too many layers and too few direct reports.

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Beth Steinberg (12:55)

They were trying to reward people by giving them leadership positions.

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Beth Steinberg (13:02)

But are you really leading a team if you're leading one person or two people?

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Beth Steinberg (13:06)

But they were doing it because it's easier to do that than to actually develop somebody or tell somebody, no, we're not promoting you.

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Beth Steinberg (13:15)

So I do think in some cases some of the delayering was warranted because I have experienced in some of my own companies, if you have too many layers and your spans are not broad enough, it causes a lack of velocity.

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Beth Steinberg (13:35)

I find in product development specifically.

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Beth Steinberg (13:39)

And I don't know that people really, until they really analyze that, figure out what is the root of some of the issues of why is our product velocity so bad?

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Beth Steinberg (13:49)

It's look at your structure.

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Beth Steinberg (13:51)

Right.

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Beth Steinberg (13:51)

And so I do think it's warranted in some cases.

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Beth Steinberg (13:54)

What I worry about when it's not.

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Beth Steinberg (13:58)

Or I do think there is, I do think there's, you know, to use one of your words, a disease sort of in Silicon Valley that if one company does it or if, you know, you go, you go to a conference and a prominent CEO is like, we're taking all the middle managers out.

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Beth Steinberg (14:15)

You go back to your company.

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Beth Steinberg (14:16)

Like, we're taking all the middle managers.

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Beth Steinberg (14:18)

It's not a one-size-fits-all.

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Beth Steinberg (14:21)

So I think there's a real balance.

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Beth Steinberg (14:22)

And I do know right now there are many, many middle managers who are really struggling, or higher-level managers who have nobody beneath them.

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Beth Steinberg (14:36)

One manager I know, an engineering leader, had 22 direct reports, and people were wondering why people weren't getting developed.

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Beth Steinberg (14:45)

I'm like, how is this person even coming to work every day?

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Beth Steinberg (14:48)

Like 22 direct reports.

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Beth Steinberg (14:50)

Unless you're, you know, Jensen is who does it.

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Beth Steinberg (14:56)

I have so many theories about why it works for him.

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Beth Steinberg (14:58)

By the way.

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Bob Sutton (15:00)

Give us one.

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Beth Steinberg (15:00)

It's him.

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Beth Steinberg (15:01)

It's him.

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Beth Steinberg (15:02)

It might be him.

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Beth Steinberg (15:03)

It is him.

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Beth Steinberg (15:04)

There is something special that he has created inside that company.

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Beth Steinberg (15:08)

And I think he has now, you know, I don't know him.

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Beth Steinberg (15:12)

I don't really know many people that work here.

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Beth Steinberg (15:14)

But from a cultural perspective, from a kind of lack of tolerance for politics, a lack of tolerance for not being accountable for your work, you know, I think that just must not exist in the same way.

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Bob Sutton (15:31)

Well, he says people feedback on his.

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Beth Steinberg (15:34)

It's right there.

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Bob Sutton (15:35)

He gives it in front of everybody.

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Beth Steinberg (15:37)

Yeah.

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Bob Sutton (15:38)

So why do I need one-on-ones?

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Bob Sutton (15:39)

If I give you feedback, then we'll all learn together.

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Beth Steinberg (15:42)

Exactly.

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Beth Steinberg (15:44)

So I think it's something very Similar special that he, he has created.

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Beth Steinberg (15:47)

My guess is, I would say don't try that at home, folks, because I just don't think it would work for very many people.

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Beth Steinberg (15:54)

And it, and he has, there's so much continuity too because he's been in charge for such a long time.

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Beth Steinberg (16:02)

I wonder, you know, if he were to, you know, obviously at some point he's going to retire, and you know, could they recreate that again?

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Beth Steinberg (16:11)

My guess is probably it would be very difficult.

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Bob Sutton (16:14)

And the.

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Bob Sutton (16:15)

Yes, and I'd love to see the organizational chart because he says there's not the same huge spans of control as there are below him.

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Beth Steinberg (16:24)

I do think there are efficiency gains, but I also think there is no substitute for building a relationship with another human being to get the best out of that person and to get the best work and the best business outcome.

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Beth Steinberg (16:41)

So I think, you know, it is I think a fool's errand to say that AI is going to, you know, change people management.

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Beth Steinberg (16:53)

Yes, it's going to change.

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Beth Steinberg (16:54)

I believe it can change the efficiency in which, you know, we can write feedback or analyze compensation or like, you know, look at some of these things in aggregate.

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Beth Steinberg (17:06)

I do think it can do that.

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Beth Steinberg (17:07)

I think there's better tools now with AI.

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Beth Steinberg (17:10)

I think there's a lot that can be done.

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Beth Steinberg (17:13)

People still want a human for the most part.

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Beth Steinberg (17:15)

And I would say engineers still want a human.

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Beth Steinberg (17:18)

I mean I don't think it's just non-technical people.

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Beth Steinberg (17:21)

So that then is still the burden on that person who has 14 direct reports.

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Beth Steinberg (17:26)

They still want a little piece of that person.

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Beth Steinberg (17:31)

And I, I do think we sort of underestimate the importance of human relationships at work.

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Rebecca Hinds (17:42)

Engagement surveys within HR have been around forever.

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Beth Steinberg (17:45)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Rebecca Hinds (17:46)

How do you evolve those?

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Rebecca Hinds (17:47)

Or do you to start to tease out this new algorithmic AI piece?

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Beth Steinberg (17:53)

Yeah, I mean I think you have to ask some questions around it.

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Beth Steinberg (17:57)

I mean, Bob probably knows research on this that I don't.

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Beth Steinberg (18:00)

I mean I think people either underused surveys or overuse surveys.

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Bob Sutton (18:05)

Right, that sounds right.

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Beth Steinberg (18:06)

It is a data point.

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Beth Steinberg (18:08)

It is not the absolute truth.

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Beth Steinberg (18:10)

You still have to kind of dig in.

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Beth Steinberg (18:13)

So I think I would ask people questions around their use of AI, how they think it's.

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Beth Steinberg (18:20)

Is it making your job easier?

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Beth Steinberg (18:23)

Harder?

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Beth Steinberg (18:23)

Is it making the relationship with your team better?

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Beth Steinberg (18:26)

Not better and why?

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Beth Steinberg (18:29)

And then once you get that first level of information, you have to dig a little bit deeper.

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Beth Steinberg (18:35)

In terms of how I would use AI for a survey, is I would absolutely throw all that data into AI, spit out and say hey, I know it says this, but what are the five smartest questions I should be asking people right now about what's working, what's not, based on this data?

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Beth Steinberg (18:52)

Right.

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Beth Steinberg (18:52)

And again, this is an area where a human has gone through kind of painstakingly trying to read the tea leaves, and perhaps they wouldn't.

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Beth Steinberg (19:03)

And I don't know.

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Beth Steinberg (19:04)

My guess is probably smart companies are asking people how they feel about it, but I don't, you know, I think in some ways people are kind of scared to hear the answer about it.

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Beth Steinberg (19:14)

Right.

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Beth Steinberg (19:14)

Because they know they're not that sophisticated.

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Beth Steinberg (19:19)

They know there's probably more they could do.

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Beth Steinberg (19:21)

So I don't know how many companies are actually asking questions.

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Bob Sutton (19:24)

One of the areas I think is interesting in Rebecca's area expertise much more than mine is that I mean it's pretty useful for identifying bad meeting behavior, excessive talking, interruptions.

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Bob Sutton (19:36)

I mean way pre AI, I used to use that stuff to give feedback to people.

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Bob Sutton (19:44)

But AI gives you much more precise data about such behavior.

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Rebecca Hinds (19:48)

Talk time.

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Beth Steinberg (19:49)

Yeah, I'm sure that's fascinating.

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Beth Steinberg (19:50)

And I know many of the meetings that I'm in for a company that I do a lot of work for, we take notes through AI with every single meeting and we publish them.

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Beth Steinberg (20:01)

And I do think it has brought a again efficiency.

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Beth Steinberg (20:06)

You don't have to go to the meeting necessarily if you're an ancillary person, but you want to know what happened.

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Beth Steinberg (20:12)

And I think it's also bringing a lot more transparency about what's happened in the meeting that you can share.

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Beth Steinberg (20:18)

I hadn't thought about looking at who's talking the most and is there biases but I think that's, I think it's brilliant and I'm sure, boy I wish I would have had that in many companies that I've been in and there was actually been a measurement and some kind of positive or for improvement outcomes based on it.

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Rebecca Hinds (20:43)

And speaking of measurement, what about performance reviews?

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Beth Steinberg (20:47)

Yeah, I think there's a lot of applications for performance reviews.

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Beth Steinberg (20:55)

One company that I work closely with is actually looking at AI to kind of transform all of their people processes and one of them being performance feedback both in kind of like are they asking the right questions, being able to aggregate kind of performance output of employees, measuring bias and how they're evaluating people.

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Beth Steinberg (21:27)

And so I do think there are a lot of applications.

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Beth Steinberg (21:31)

I mean I, and I think Bob does as well has pretty strong feelings about performance management systems and how bad mobile.

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Beth Steinberg (21:38)

So not.

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Beth Steinberg (21:38)

Yeah, I mean I think at best they're benign.

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Beth Steinberg (21:42)

You Know, at best, I think, you know, they're, they're rarely that helpful to people and you know, they, they should be.

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Beth Steinberg (21:50)

I mean I, I, I always talk to people about the reason you should do this is to help people succeed and help help drive business outcomes.

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Beth Steinberg (21:59)

If you're that then I don't know why you're wasting everybody's time.

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Beth Steinberg (22:04)

So I do think they can.

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Beth Steinberg (22:05)

AI can completely transform performance management.

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Beth Steinberg (22:09)

Unfortunately, I think many CEOs don't understand performance management and use it as a tool to get rid of people.

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Bob Sutton (22:19)

Yeah, so that's the rap against performance.

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Bob Sutton (22:22)

People only use them because they don't have the courage to actually just fire someone.

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Bob Sutton (22:26)

So.

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Beth Steinberg (22:26)

Correct.

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Bob Sutton (22:27)

So that's why they get used.

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Beth Steinberg (22:29)

Yeah.

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Rebecca Hinds (22:30)

So this organization that's rethinking HR processes with HR with AI performance feedback, what.

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Beth Steinberg (22:38)

Are some of the headcount planning?

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Beth Steinberg (22:41)

Just sort of resource planning.

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Beth Steinberg (22:42)

I mean they're a company that's done very well and so everybody wants a million people all the time and they're trying to think about how they build efficiencies into when they're hiring from a skill set perspective.

‍

Beth Steinberg (22:59)

What are the competencies that they're over subscribed under subscribed?

‍

Beth Steinberg (23:04)

I'm challenging them to look at what is your strategy two to three years out, working backwards and trying to figure out okay, I'm going to need this competency in end of 2026.

‍

Beth Steinberg (23:16)

It's a really hard one.

‍

Beth Steinberg (23:17)

How do we start working on that?

‍

Beth Steinberg (23:18)

Now that's always things I've told companies to do but it's been very difficult to do.

‍

Beth Steinberg (23:24)

And so they're thinking about it for talent planning, all, practically everything.

‍

Beth Steinberg (23:32)

I mean they're certainly using it in the recruiting process and I think they've hired someone specifically to be the person to build some of these things for them.

‍

Beth Steinberg (23:46)

And I think it's brilliant.

‍

Beth Steinberg (23:47)

I think they're a smart company and they are clear eyed about it.

‍

Beth Steinberg (23:53)

And so they know some may work, some may not and we may have to iterate on these things but it's a place to start.

‍

Beth Steinberg (24:01)

So I think it's really smart.

‍

Bob Sutton (24:03)

So you just said something about some may work and some may not.

‍

Bob Sutton (24:05)

And this was from all the interviews and stuff Rebecca and I did.

‍

Bob Sutton (24:09)

Maybe the one that I thought was most interesting was also interesting that the but the guy isn't letting us use his name so.

‍

Beth Steinberg (24:14)

Oh, interesting.

‍

Beth Steinberg (24:15)

Okay.

‍

Bob Sutton (24:16)

But this guy argued that in his company they assume that when they redesign a role or eliminate a role that they assume that 80% of the time it won't work.

‍

Bob Sutton (24:28)

And so what they do is they actually test it before they make the change in 

‍

Beth Steinberg (24:30)

How?

‍

Bob Sutton (24:37)

So with pilots, right?

‍

Rebecca Hinds (24:40)

With smaller pilots, that's smart.

‍

Rebecca Hinds (24:43)

And they get the people who will in theory be replaced by the technology to train the AI and look at.

‍

Beth Steinberg (24:50)

The output of what happens and what is.

‍

Beth Steinberg (24:54)

I mean, I think that's very smart.

‍

Beth Steinberg (24:57)

Have they made, have they found that.

‍

Bob Sutton (25:00)

They've made a massive number of changes, but they don't make them until they have evidence?

‍

Bob Sutton (25:04)

I think that's great because at least one of my complaints what's happened with AI is there's all these theories about who we're going to get rid of and how we're going to redesign roles.

‍

Beth Steinberg (25:13)

I agree.

‍

Bob Sutton (25:14)

So we redesigned a bunch of jobs and fire a bunch of people, but we actually don't know whether it works or not.

‍

Beth Steinberg (25:18)

My complaint about my own field has been forever.

‍

Beth Steinberg (25:25)

It's such a reactive field and it doesn't have to be, you know, and, you know, I think people wait for something to happen, then they clean it up or, you know, instead of saying, okay, how can we align ourselves to the business and to the strat and to the company strategy in a way that we know that these things are likely going to happen, we're going to anticipate those things and we're going to help drive, you know, those business outcomes instead of like waiting for the aftermath of those things.

‍

Beth Steinberg (26:00)

And why it's so hard for people to do that, I'm not really sure.

‍

Beth Steinberg (26:05)

I'm not saying it's easy, but it makes your life a lot easier.

‍

Beth Steinberg (26:09)

It also makes the jobs of the people on your team much more fulfilling, rather than being like, oh, blah, blah, blah, screwed up again, I gotta clean that up.

‍

Beth Steinberg (26:21)

You're like, okay, I anticipate that this is a new product that we're looking at.

‍

Beth Steinberg (26:27)

We don't have these people.

‍

Beth Steinberg (26:28)

How are we going to get ahead of this?

‍

Beth Steinberg (26:29)

How are we going to develop these people?

‍

Beth Steinberg (26:31)

How are we going to hire externally?

‍

Beth Steinberg (26:33)

How are we going to talk to the leaders about it?

‍

Beth Steinberg (26:35)

What should the org structure maybe look like and change because of that?

‍

Beth Steinberg (26:39)

That's interesting work, right?

‍

Rebecca Hinds (26:41)

Why is that so difficult?

‍

Beth Steinberg (26:43)

I think a couple of reasons.

‍

Beth Steinberg (26:46)

Number one, I just don't think a lot of people, leaders have learned that way.

‍

Beth Steinberg (26:53)

It takes courage, it takes some risk.

‍

Beth Steinberg (26:55)

Maybe you're gonna have a little crow on your face.

‍

Beth Steinberg (26:57)

Maybe you're wrong.

‍

Beth Steinberg (26:58)

You also have to be deeply engaged with the outcomes of the business, and you have to have really deep relationships with people in the business.

‍

Beth Steinberg (27:08)

So, you know, these things.

‍

Beth Steinberg (27:10)

That's part of it, I think.

‍

Beth Steinberg (27:12)

I think it's skill.

‍

Beth Steinberg (27:13)

I think it's lack of relationships inside the business.

‍

Beth Steinberg (27:17)

Maybe not really.

‍

Beth Steinberg (27:18)

You know, there's a lot of companies that don't say to the HR person, your job is to drive business outcomes.

‍

Bob Sutton (27:25)

Right.

‍

Beth Steinberg (27:26)

Like I got called for a job the other day and they were like, we, you know, they want somebody who wants to drive business outcomes.

‍

Beth Steinberg (27:33)

And I'm like, do they really give me evidence of that?

‍

Beth Steinberg (27:35)

Like, why do they say that?

‍

Beth Steinberg (27:37)

And you know, they actually had some really good thinking about it.

‍

Beth Steinberg (27:42)

That is the exception, I think.

‍

Bob Sutton (27:44)

Yeah, well, that.

‍

Bob Sutton (27:44)

Well, you know this much better than I do.

‍

Bob Suttong (27:46)

But there's lots of ways to figure out how powerful the head of HR and many companies are.

‍

Bob Sutton (27:52)

The difference between their pay and the right and other functions.

‍

Beth Steinberg (27:55)

Correct.

‍

Bob Sutton (27:56)

Where they sit, that.

‍

Bob Sutton (27:57)

I mean, those things that really.

‍

Bob Sutton (27:59)

And I bet you're really adept at figuring that out quickly.

‍

Beth Steinberg (28:01)

Oh, you can figure it out quickly for sure.

‍

Beth Steinberg (28:03)

But I, but I think for people who have leaders that have tried it, you know, because I've been talking about this, I'm not the only one that talks about.

‍

Beth Steinberg (28:11)

Lots of people talk about the reactive versus proactive.

‍

Beth Steinberg (28:14)

Once you get into that proactive mode, boy, your life is just a lot better and easier.

‍

Beth Steinberg (28:20)

Right.

‍

Beth Steinberg (28:20)

I mean, and I just think it's a hard step to take.

‍

Beth Steinberg (28:25)

But any, you know, there are some less experienced people, leaders that I coach, and that is one thing that I tell them always, right.

‍

Beth Steinberg (28:35)

Get ahead of it.

‍

Beth Steinberg (28:36)

Align yourself with the business.

‍

Beth Steinberg (28:38)

Think about what are the, you know, the, the processes, the tools.

‍

Beth Steinberg (28:42)

How do you learn about.

‍

Beth Steinberg (28:43)

If you don't know about AI, how are you going to learn about it?

‍

Beth Steinberg (28:46)

Sit in the meetings so you can actually make those good recommendations about technology people strategy that you may not feel like you should be making a case.

‍

Bob Sutton (29:01)

You were making a minute or two on this theme is that when you're more strategic and proactive, the implication was that everybody inside and outside of HR will actually have more certainty about their future of their employment and maybe more confidence.

‍

Bob Sutton (29:16)

But with AI, I'm thinking also related to this is there's all this fear there is about what's going to happen to my job, whether I'm a frontline employee, a middle manager from not just the HR perspective, from the whole company perspective, what, what can you do to reduce the fear and create psychological safety given the inevitable?

‍

Bob Sutton (29:39)

I mean, it's objectively rational to be frightened.

‍

Beth Steinberg (29:43)

Agree.

‍

Beth Steinberg (29:43)

But we have to all move ahead anyway.

‍

Beth Steinberg (29:45)

We do.

‍

Beth Steinberg (29:46)

I mean, I think some of the Things that I would do in any big change.

‍

Beth Steinberg (29:51)

Be as transparent as you can.

‍

Beth Steinberg (29:53)

You know, again, try to get ahead of it.

‍

Beth Steinberg (29:55)

Can you develop people in different ways?

‍

Beth Steinberg (29:57)

Can you look and see, you know, can they.

‍

Beth Steinberg (30:01)

Can these roles be eliminated?

‍

Beth Steinberg (30:02)

But can these, you know, this skill set, or can you upskill them to take on another job?

‍

Beth Steinberg (30:07)

I mean, I think people are the most afraid when they're silenced.

‍

Beth Steinberg (30:14)

Right.

‍

Beth Steinberg (30:14)

Because they know something is coming and they assume it's bad because they're not hearing anything about it.

‍

Beth Steinberg (30:25)

And, you know, I believe that people can hear hard things.

‍

Beth Steinberg (30:32)

They can take it.

‍

Beth Steinberg (30:33)

It may not be easy, but if they feel like they're being deceived or lied to or information kept from them, it's almost irrecoverable.

‍

Beth Steinberg (30:43)

So I think you have to.

‍

Beth Steinberg (30:44)

Leaders have to be brave right now and tell the truth.

‍

Beth Steinberg (30:46)

And, you know, I also think there has to be a level of ownership from employees.

‍

Beth Steinberg (30:52)

But if you think you're in a job that's going to become obsolete, what are you going to do about it?

‍

Bob Sutton (30:57)

Right, right, right.

‍

Beth Steinberg (30:59)

Are there ways that you can develop?

‍

Beth Steinberg (31:01)

Can you ask your manager, hey, can I go to this?

‍

Beth Steinberg (31:04)

Can I, like, shadow somebody in a different role?

‍

Beth Steinberg (31:08)

Take some ownership and accountability for yourself and your job as well.

‍

Beth Steinberg (31:14)

But I think it's probably going on everywhere right now.

‍

Beth Steinberg (31:18)

I mean, I think there's probably equal amount of excitement and fear right now.

‍

Rebecca Hinds (31:23)

What about early career hiring we're hearing?

‍

Beth Steinberg (31:26)

Yeah, yeah.

‍

Bob Sutton (31:29)

Over and over.

‍

Beth Steinberg (31:29)

I worry about it a lot because I think.

‍

Beth Steinberg (31:32)

And actually, I think Brian Chesky just came out saying we still have got to hire.

‍

Beth Steinberg (31:37)

You know, there's a lot of reasons to hire early career, and I totally agree.

‍

Beth Steinberg (31:42)

I mean, there's something that infuses the company when you bring in early talent.

‍

Beth Steinberg (31:52)

Right.

‍

Beth Steinberg (31:52)

There's a freshness of thinking.

‍

Beth Steinberg (31:55)

There's kind of fresh eyes on the culture.

‍

Beth Steinberg (32:00)

I believe in terms of levels, you really need to have kind of a distribution of levels inside your company.

‍

Beth Steinberg (32:09)

Not too many lower levels, not too many higher levels.

‍

Beth Steinberg (32:12)

You know, it gives people the ability to mentor people.

‍

Beth Steinberg (32:17)

So I worry that people may believe it's just a skill, a skill set and not more of something that infuses your culture.

‍

Beth Steinberg (32:28)

So I was glad that Brian came out and said that.

‍

Beth Steinberg (32:31)

I hope others do as well.

‍

Beth Steinberg (32:34)

But I do worry about it.

‍

Beth Steinberg (32:36)

I know one company that I know of just laid off one of their early talent people.

‍

Bob Sutton (32:44)

Well, that's happening.

‍

Beth Steinberg (32:45)

Yeah.

‍

Rebecca Hinds (32:47)

Well, Beth, this has been fantastic.

‍

Rebecca Hinds (32:48)

You're a wealth of knowledge, and I've learned a thing.

‍

Beth Steinberg (32:52)

Thank you.

‍

Beth Steinberg (32:52)

Thank you, Rebecca.

‍

Beth Steinberg (32:53)

Thank you, Bob.

‍

Beth Steinberg (32:54)

Thanks for having me.

‍

Bob Sutton (32:55)

You always like there's a truth-telling quality to you that I don't get.

‍

Beth Steinberg (33:01)

I can't help myself.

‍

Bob Sutton (33:02)

For the new all of your compatriots in similar roles, I always appreciate.

‍

Beth Steinberg (33:06)

Oh, thank you.

‍

Beth Steinberg (33:07)

I appreciate that.

‍

Rebecca Hinds (33:08)

What a great conversation.

‍

Rebecca Hinds (33:09)

If you thought so too, subscribe so you never miss an episode.

‍

Rebecca Hinds (33:13)

Thanks for spending your time with us and we'll see you next time on Intelligence, Real and Imagined.